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YourSwordisMine
Joined: 03 Jul 2012
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Location: Warrenton, VA
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 Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| elphilo wrote: | | akylius wrote: |
2. The terrain on the table makes an enormous difference in how the game plays. I am used to hardly any LOS blocking terrain, which makes shooting units very good and large models can always be targeted. But in every NOVA game you can expect at least 3 huge pieces of terrain that are tall enough to hide a riptide behind. In one game, my opponent deployed 3 riptides and 2 wave serpents all out of my line of sight. This makes going first a big disadvantage since I hardly got any shooting on the first turn. I obviously need more practice on tables with this kind of terrain because it really makes a difference in what units are good and which are bad. It also turns some games into a hiding competition, which drives me crazy. I don't play 40K to see who can hide their units better. And if I have to hear that someone's MC has a toe in area terrain to get a 5+ cover save one more time.... |
Is it wrong that I loved the terrain there? I too normally don't play with very much LOS blocking terrain and going there was very refreshing. Though of course the games that it mattered (like playing against Tau) I get a table with very little LOS blocking terrain 
And yeah, the amounts of disbelief I got from hopping my Wraithknight from area terrain to area terrain and claiming 5+ cover save was awesome and frustrating to explain at the same time |
As the person responsible for rearranging each table Friday night, you're welcome. 
I really liked setting up the tables. Which setup did you like best? Fridays or Saturdays arrangement? I thought Saturdays arrangement looked the most interesting, with its central LOS blocking terrain piece.
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YourSwordisMine
Joined: 03 Jul 2012
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Location: Warrenton, VA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:34 am Post subject: |
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| Casey wrote: | | I still don't like what NOVA is doing to the hobby (although whether or not NOVA is changing 40k or if NOVA reflects how 40k has changed is up for debate) but it's still a fun tournament, and it's local. |
Could you go more into this? I'm curious to know how you think NOVA is changing 40k? Has this been discussed before? If so, I'm new to it, and not aware of what's being changed or how people see it being changed.
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KevinF
Joined: 05 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:39 am Post subject: |
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I did notice a change between the days. The first day's arrangement favored shooting armies and the other arrangement (with the central LOS blocker) favored assault armies. It was good to switch it up, because it did make the games play differently. I know I was using that central piece to pop my riptide in and out to take some shots and hide again.
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YourSwordisMine
Joined: 03 Jul 2012
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Location: Warrenton, VA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| akylius wrote: | | I did notice a change between the days. The first day's arrangement favored shooting armies and the other arrangement (with the central LOS blocker) favored assault armies. It was good to switch it up, because it did make the games play differently. I know I was using that central piece to pop my riptide in and out to take some shots and hide again. |
As this was my first NOVA, I don't know if this was a new policy or was used last year or not. Every table was arranged to Table 1. Once Table 1 was arranged, it was then my job through and arrange every other table to match. There were a LOT of tables lol! It took most of the night, but it was fun.
I like the idea actually. That way the board is different each day and people cant get used to one board setup and thus plan on it being the same every day. A really cool idea IMHO. Plus, it makes for setup a lot easier on the convention staff (i.e. me lol).
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elphilo
Questing knight
Joined: 09 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 11:58 am Post subject: |
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I believe the "alternative terrain setup" which Day 1 had is new to NOVA. It was put in place so people couldn't "game" the terrain setup.
As a Tau player I prefered the day 1 setup, more shooting could be done on my part. But as a player in general, day 2 is probably the most balanced. The only thing that I could say that I disliked about the terrain setup is that on one table I would be able to shoot over the middle piece of terrain with riptides and units perched on top of hills. But then on another table the middle piece of terrain was so tall that I could hide my wraithknight behind without my opponent being able to see it. Other than that, I was really impressed with the terrain and wish I had a lot more LOS blocking stuff in my personal collection.
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YourSwordisMine
Joined: 03 Jul 2012
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:24 pm Post subject: |
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| elphilo wrote: | I believe the "alternative terrain setup" which Day 1 had is new to NOVA. It was put in place so people couldn't "game" the terrain setup.
As a Tau player I prefered the day 1 setup, more shooting could be done on my part. But as a player in general, day 2 is probably the most balanced. The only thing that I could say that I disliked about the terrain setup is that on one table I would be able to shoot over the middle piece of terrain with riptides and units perched on top of hills. But then on another table the middle piece of terrain was so tall that I could hide my wraithknight behind without my opponent being able to see it. Other than that, I was really impressed with the terrain and wish I had a lot more LOS blocking stuff in my personal collection. |
Hmmm... I hope I didn't mess up any tables... Now I feel bad...
Were you playing Taudar? IT seemed REALLY popular choice...
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elphilo
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:30 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah I was one of those guys 
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YourSwordisMine
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 1:51 pm Post subject: |
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| elphilo wrote: | | Yeah I was one of those guys |
How dare you stray from the Dark Angels...
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ExecutionerofKhaine.
Shade
Joined: 30 Nov 2010
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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I had a great time, enjoyed all 6 of my opponents and will return for another year of getting thumped. In the theme of constructive criticism I offer my ramblings....
Not sure how I felt about terrain on the Fantasy side. On one hand I liked that they were all the same because no one had an advantage in the game, no matter which table. If I was a shooty army, I would be quite upset if the table we played had walls, fences and trees to hide behind. If it was wide open my opponent would be upset too. So I thought 2 trees, 2 hills and 2 building were nice. I do on the other hand think that mysterious terrain would have broken it up a bit without making it too one sided.
I also liked the variety of battle bonuses, even though I don't know how they played into the standings. Maybe the battle points should have been higher or the bonuses counted as 1 pt each so less weight was on them. Think they counted winning first to pair it down to one which was kool, but not sure how the bonuses played into it for overall. Others seemed confused as well. Would be easier it was posted for all to see as we went along. Also if table assignments went with this and tables were numbered it would have been quicker and easier.
Lastly my big gripe, I did not like the paint judging at all!!! I don't know what they were doing, and am not sure they didn't either. Not that they can't judge, just didn't see them do it. They walked around while we were playing, glanced over the table, not asking any questions about conversions, or wanting to see display boards at all. were my models so crappy looked they didn't want to be any closer???? I offered several times and was declined to show any models to them, they didn't seem interested. If we were getting a paint score to add into our total, how can they not look at the whole army, at details, or conversions?? I put a lot of work into my remedial converting and middle of the road painting, and would like to know where I ranked in the crowd. I had to leave and did not see the awards, but some of what I saw on the Fantasy judging table Saturday night was not what I thought was the best. Good thing I am not a judge I guess, but it seemed way, way more weight was placed on the conversions than on painting. I certainly didn't think I belonged to any awards at all, just wanted to know....where did I fit in that crowd of 64 players?
I also wonder what my score is? Did not get any score last year or this year. I wonder where I ranked in the overall scoring, am I above half or not? I will keep an eye on the website for scores again. I did not see anything last year.
I am done rambling now
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Arromanche
Ultimate Bandwagoning GW Whore
Joined: 27 Nov 2010
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Location: Burke, VA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Scores:
http://www.wargamersusa.com/showthread.php?tid=67&pid=125#pid125
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Gym Shorts
Joined: 23 May 2011
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| Posted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 8:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Some of those painting Scores are questionable. I almost think they gave people the wrong scores. A couple of the people I played have some fairly high painting grades (30) and their models didn't look that great. I think the judges must heavily weigh conversion work rather than actual quality of painting. |
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elphilo
Questing knight
Joined: 09 Aug 2012
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:21 am Post subject: |
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| YourSwordisMine wrote: | | elphilo wrote: | | Yeah I was one of those guys |
How dare you stray from the Dark Angels... |
Eh, I'm a Deathwing player. Also my love for giant robots outweighs my want to get my ass handed to me every game by just showing up with overly expensive terminators
| Gym Shorts wrote: | | Some of those painting Scores are questionable. I almost think they gave people the wrong scores. A couple of the people I played have some fairly high painting grades (30) and their models didn't look that great. I think the judges must heavily weigh conversion work rather than actual quality of painting. |
I don't know if it was the same for fantasy but I know the scores for 40k went up to like 70ish? With 50 being the average. I know I think my army was better than some of the other armies, but since it was "plain" mine only got a 30. Meanwhile the Space Wolf/Tau player I played got a 50 even though his Tau had just paint slapped on. So now that I think about it I'm going to agree, painting scores was questionable.
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Casey
Genestealer
Joined: 20 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 8:01 am Post subject: |
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| YourSwordisMine wrote: | | Casey wrote: | | I still don't like what NOVA is doing to the hobby (although whether or not NOVA is changing 40k or if NOVA reflects how 40k has changed is up for debate) but it's still a fun tournament, and it's local. |
Could you go more into this? I'm curious to know how you think NOVA is changing 40k? Has this been discussed before? If so, I'm new to it, and not aware of what's being changed or how people see it being changed. |
Yeah, 40k has always been a little competitive but it seems to have become something else entirely over the last two or three years. People, even those being competitive, would want to take lists that at least somehow represented the 40k background. Unless there's a whole Horus Heresy length series about Riptides and Wraithknights working together to punch and shoot Dark Eldar I don't think the current metagame represents the fluff especially well.
I would be a lot more forgiving of this if the armies at least looked nice. Some do, but many do not. The average appearance of armies is well below what I remember seeing at the GW GTs and at Adepticons in the past.
Not that I care. I went 5-2 and one of those losses was due to me playing a rule wrong and screwing myself. I am a competitive player, I just want to look good while doing it. That so many others just quickly drybrush or airbrush the flavor of the week makes me sad 
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KevinF
Joined: 05 Feb 2012
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:50 am Post subject: |
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I could not agree more. NOVA was all about winning and very few players cared about the hobby. I only played against two players that actually cared about their models and their army composition. One guy had an all Khorne demon army. Another had a Relictors army he was playing using the Space Wolf rules. He had a typed sheet explaining the background of his army and some of his models were converted to show their use of captured chaos weapons. At GW tournaments this kind of stuff was expected. You could tell that most of the players there cared about the hobby aspect, took time to paint their miniatures and develop a background or theme for them (even naming units and characters), and transported their miniatures with care and love. I saw a lot of armies packed in boxes without foam, just tossed around. It made me cringe each time I saw one. This shift started in 5th, when it became easy to lopside your army with a bunch of transports and hardly any troops. You can still see that trend in the tournaments in 6th. I think we should all make it out personal mission to eradicate it and get back to the emphasis on the hobby, sportsmanship, and battle points.
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elphilo
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:08 am Post subject: |
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In order to do that you have to bring composition scores back into the fray. And a lot of people really hated that so now you have what it is today.
It might have been like that in the winners room, but us guys in the losers room went up against very fluffy lists. I went up against an Iyanden with 3 wraithknights and three squads of 5 wraithguard/blades in wave serpents and a spiritseer. I also went up against an ork horde with no nob squad, because apparently it isn't fluffy. Then my last opponent ran a pretty balanced IG list with a single Vendetta because he felt it was really cheesy to run more. With an event this size you're going to be facing different types of armies depending on where you placed. The only armies that I would find "questionable" was the Grey Knight player that brought 3 storm ravens and 3 dreadknights, the rest being henchmen squads in razorbacks with Coteaz and the Space Wolves allied with Tau player. Though that guy was just a dick in general.
I can see the want to play fluffy, I know a few times I was asked what the fluff was behind my army, since the Tau and the Eldar were the same color. The fluff I came up with is pretty weak but the people that asked seemed to appreciate I did take some time into thinking it. While I'm not a big fan of comp, I can see the want of it.
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Skipschnit
Herr Pyramid Dictator!
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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Sometimes you just gotta ask, "What the fluff, man?"
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Casey
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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It's tough. You either take a really mean list just to have a chance when paired against someone with a mean list (but then feel awful when you play against a really nice guy with a gorgeous and fluffy army), or you take a fluffy army and then get bitter at playing against "those guys". It's hard.
I think we should all play tougher lists, but just make sure they look really nice, too. Personally, I don't mind the dumb 3 Riptide lists but I just wish they looked better.
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paidinfull
Joined: 20 Dec 2010
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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| elphilo wrote: | | In order to do that you have to bring composition scores back into the fray. And a lot of people really hated that so now you have what it is today. |
You think that's the way to go or simply mentioning that's how it was? I ask because I don't feel that 40k needs that.
| elphilo wrote: |
It might have been like that in the winners room, but us guys in the losers room went up against very fluffy lists. I went up against an Iyanden with 3 wraithknights and three squads of 5 wraithguard/blades in wave serpents and a spiritseer. I also went up against an ork horde with no nob squad, because apparently it isn't fluffy. Then my last opponent ran a pretty balanced IG list with a single Vendetta because he felt it was really cheesy to run more. With an event this size you're going to be facing different types of armies depending on where you placed. The only armies that I would find "questionable" was the Grey Knight player that brought 3 storm ravens and 3 dreadknights, the rest being henchmen squads in razorbacks with Coteaz and the Space Wolves allied with Tau player. Though that guy was just a dick in general.
I can see the want to play fluffy, I know a few times I was asked what the fluff was behind my army, since the Tau and the Eldar were the same color. The fluff I came up with is pretty weak but the people that asked seemed to appreciate I did take some time into thinking it. While I'm not a big fan of comp, I can see the want of it. |
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elphilo
Questing knight
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Skipschnit wrote: | | Sometimes you just gotta ask, "What the fluff, man?" |
If you really want to know, the Eldar are from a smaller craft world and before they completely die off want to leave the universe in a better place so have decided to join this Tau Sept. Not good, but better than SW/Tau just because they can
| Casey wrote: | It's tough. You either take a really mean list just to have a chance when paired against someone with a mean list (but then feel awful when you play against a really nice guy with a gorgeous and fluffy army), or you take a fluffy army and then get bitter at playing against "those guys". It's hard.
I think we should all play tougher lists, but just make sure they look really nice, too. Personally, I don't mind the dumb 3 Riptide lists but I just wish they looked better. |
I agree. I know I felt terrible playing against my Ork opponent. I took a pretty competitive list while he just wanted to play some games with Orks. I thanked him for the game and apologized because our lists were two different beasts.
| paidinfull wrote: | | elphilo wrote: | | In order to do that you have to bring composition scores back into the fray. And a lot of people really hated that so now you have what it is today. |
You think that's the way to go or simply mentioning that's how it was? I ask because I don't feel that 40k needs that.
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I don't think 40k tournaments need comp again. I think the FOC and the fact a lot of the missions are objectives gives people enough reason to take a good chunk of troops. I know I took 5 troops and thought, man I could use some more of those. Of course I took some MSU so that could be the reason. In fact my 5th opponent asked what I would take in 2k points and I told him 150 more points in troops. The problem is that you can have a lot of these troop squads for super cheap. Meanwhile these other things are super cheap as well. 200ish points for a Riptide with Ion Accelerator and interceptor? WTF were they thinking? At least the Wraithknight seems to be priced appropriately. But then the whole, cheap as [censored] troops comes into play.
So yeah, I was just mentioning it.
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paidinfull
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| Posted: Wed Sep 04, 2013 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| elphilo wrote: |
I don't think 40k tournaments need comp again. I think the FOC and the fact a lot of the missions are objectives gives people enough reason to take a good chunk of troops. I know I took 5 troops and thought, man I could use some more of those. Of course I took some MSU so that could be the reason. In fact my 5th opponent asked what I would take in 2k points and I told him 150 more points in troops. The problem is that you can have a lot of these troop squads for super cheap. Meanwhile these other things are super cheap as well. 200ish points for a Riptide with Ion Accelerator and interceptor? WTF were they thinking? At least the Wraithknight seems to be priced appropriately. But then the whole, cheap as [censored] troops comes into play.
So yeah, I was just mentioning it. |
Thanks for elaborating!
I've actually been discussing this quite a bit with some of my gamer friends. They play a great deal more fantasy than I do, and are big proponents of using the ETC Rule set. It has a bunch of composition rules built into and IMO drastically impacts the game. Now, I definitely get that since I don't play fantasy I can't really speak to how composition and unit restrictions actually impact the game experience, however, for me I can still attest that philosophically I don't agree with it. I feel at that point, where you are augmenting the core rule set, you're no longer playing "that game", but something else entirely.
As far as Riptides go, I'm not as harsh on them as others are. There's a lot that goes on in there. For example, it's awful in CC, just "holding on" in almost all cases, and it's very susceptible to maledictions. A lot of the Tau and Eldar complaints I think stem from folks having not played them, as or against in a long while. Similarly, the increase of MCs make Sniper units much more worthwhile than they have been in a long while. |
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